New AC System - need suggestions (Florida)

720 Views 15 Replies 5 Participants Last post by eggs, 25 d ago

Abbey

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago

Need to replace my inside and outside AC unit. General question about the Seer ratings that changed 01/01/23. Is it bad to buy a model that is the old seer rating of 14 ? Obviously I wouldn't get the $135 refund from my eclectic company but my concern is will there be an issue for getting parts in the future since its an outdated Seer? Or does the Seer not matter? This is the first time I have every replaced an AC Unit. I wasn't sure if the updated Seer rating also causes new parts to carrier that would be just another thing you have to fix when it breaks.

I got quotes for a 4 Ton Unit on these models

1. Ruud RP1148 4 Ton - $7,400 (this is the old seer rating and not the seer2)
2. Carrier Comforter Maker - 15 SSER2 $9,000
3. Trane - 4TWR4048N / TEM4A0C49 - SEER2 14.3 $8,200

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

markusolas

· #2 · 2 mo ago

14 seer still be everywhere in north states and parts available everywhere so not bad . Just guys in black suits deciding what is good for you or not

)).
Get 13 seer if you want. They say it’s not permitted but who cares

)). It’s not like you making a crime. In Indiana we have to go up to 14 seer minimum from now on but still can buy 13

Abbey

Discussion Starter · #3 · 2 mo ago

My other question is my outside unit is a 4 ton and my A/H is a 5 ton ( I guess they use to do that years ago)..... Should I go with a 5 Ton on each or a 4 Ton?

eggs

· #4 · 2 mo ago

First off - SEER is Seasonal Energy Rating. The bigger the condensing coil outside is, the smaller the fan motor needs to be to cool the condenser. Thus why a 22 SEER 5 ton unit is huge. Now look at costs - the bigger the coil, more materials are need and thus the cost goes up. How about savings? The cost to operate a 14 SEER vs 16 SEER is around $1 to $3 per month in savings, pending on you location and demand. In the Mid West, it would take a life time to get the payback. Now the 4 ton to 5 ton match issues...... Years ago furnaces had smaller blowers, small duct work and so forth. Sizing the evap coil in the furnace 1 size bigger to make sure we boiled off all the liquid in the coil. Now a days, all furnace drive motors are ECM ( Electronicly Commutated Motor), which means rather than having a capacitor on a motor with 6 poles (1075 rpm), the motor has many poles and runs much like 3 phase power. A EMC controller pulses power to the motor, the faster the pulses, the faster the motor. Since it kind of acts like 3 phase, the power output is much higher. If we tell it to spin 1075 rpm, it will draw the needed power to the controllers limit to maintain that. Same if we say 900 rpm, it will draw what ever it needs to the limit of the controller to maintain that. A PSC motor can not do this. So matching coils and condensers is always best. Some manufactures do not make a 4 ton coil, so a 5 ton is used These coils should have a TXV ( Thermal Expansion Valve ) on them for better control. Hope this helps - Good Luck

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Abbey

Discussion Starter · #5 · 2 mo ago

eggs said:
Sizing the evap coil in the furnace 1 size bigger to make sure we boiled off all the liquid in the coil. Now a days, all furnace drive motors are ECM ( Electronicly Commutated Motor), which means rather than having a capacitor on a motor with 6 poles (1075 rpm), the motor has many poles and runs much like 3 phase power. A EMC controller pulses power to the motor, the faster the pulses, the faster the motor. Since it kind of acts like 3 phase, the power output is much higher. If we tell it to spin 1075 rpm, it will draw the needed power to the controllers limit to maintain that. Same if we say 900 rpm, it will draw what ever it needs to the limit of the controller to maintain that. A PSC motor can not do this. So matching coils and condensers is always best.

Split unit Heat Pump Systems
#1 Contractor- quoted me a Comfortmaker 4 ton outside and a 5 ton AH. Seer Rating was Seer2 15.2. $8900

#2 Contractor was Ruud
A. 14 Seer rating 4 Ton $6900
B Seer2 15.2. 4 Ton $7300.
C. Seer2 15.2 5 Ton. he said they dont have any of these at the warehouses and cant get it.

eggs

· #6 · 2 mo ago

You must be in a small market. 1-1/2 ton through 5 ton units in several brands readily available in the Milwaukee Wisconsin market. Comfortmaker by the way is a cheaper version of Carrier. Ruud is OK, but not in my top 5 favorite brands. See if you can find a Goodman, a good mid line unit that is priced as a mid line, cheaper than Rudd or Carrier.

Armen

· #7 · 2 mo ago

Abbey said:
Need to replace my inside and outside AC unit. General question about the Seer ratings that changed 01/01/23. Is it bad to buy a model that is the old seer rating of 14 ? Obviously I wouldn't get the $135 refund from my eclectic company but my concern is will there be an issue for getting parts in the future since its an outdated Seer? Or does the Seer not matter? This is the first time I have every replaced an AC Unit. I wasn't sure if the updated Seer rating also causes new parts to carrier that would be just another thing you have to fix when it breaks.

I got quotes for a 4 Ton Unit on these models

1. Ruud RP1148 4 Ton - $7,400 (this is the old seer rating and not the seer2)
2. Carrier Comforter Maker - 15 SSER2 $9,000
3. Trane - 4TWR4048N / TEM4A0C49 - SEER2 14.3 $8,200

Armen

· #8 · 2 mo ago

I would recommend carrier.

Not worth saving $1-2k if higher seer rating.

Don’t go under the 15-seers. Your warranty can get waived.

Abbey

Discussion Starter · #9 · 2 mo ago

eggs said:
You must be in a small market. 1-1/2 ton through 5 ton units in several brands readily available in the Milwaukee Wisconsin market. Comfortmaker by the way is a cheaper version of Carrier. Ruud is OK, but not in my top 5 favorite brands. See if you can find a Goodman, a good mid line unit that is priced as a mid line, cheaper than Rudd or Carrier.

Im in Tampa, FL so I would think that is a bigger market. Im not sure if what the contractor meant was he doesnt have the 5 ton with the Seer ratings that are needed for the $2K tax credit which would be Seer2 15.2 / seer16. This was for the Ruud and Comfortmaker. Another contractor told me they are just starting to see the 5 Tons with those ratings come in for the Rheem.

My goal is to figure out if I need a 4 or 5 Ton. My current units are mismatched. AH 5ton and outside unit is a 4ton. I know back in 2003 they did that to make it more efficient. But with newer technology I'm not sure if I need a 5 Ton AH or will I not be happy with a 4 ton bc I'm use to the 5 ton AH? I dont want to spend all this money and be humid and hot lol

Abbey

Discussion Starter · #10 · 2 mo ago

eggs said:
First off - SEER is Seasonal Energy Rating. The bigger the condensing coil outside is, the smaller the fan motor needs to be to cool the condenser. Thus why a 22 SEER 5 ton unit is huge. Now look at costs - the bigger the coil, more materials are need and thus the cost goes up. How about savings? The cost to operate a 14 SEER vs 16 SEER is around $1 to $3 per month in savings, pending on you location and demand. In the Mid West, it would take a life time to get the payback. Now the 4 ton to 5 ton match issues...... Years ago furnaces had smaller blowers, small duct work and so forth. Sizing the evap coil in the furnace 1 size bigger to make sure we boiled off all the liquid in the coil. Now a days, all furnace drive motors are ECM ( Electronicly Commutated Motor), which means rather than having a capacitor on a motor with 6 poles (1075 rpm), the motor has many poles and runs much like 3 phase power. A EMC controller pulses power to the motor, the faster the pulses, the faster the motor. Since it kind of acts like 3 phase, the power output is much higher. If we tell it to spin 1075 rpm, it will draw the needed power to the controllers limit to maintain that. Same if we say 900 rpm, it will draw what ever it needs to the limit of the controller to maintain that. A PSC motor can not do this. So matching coils and condensers is always best. Some manufactures do not make a 4 ton coil, so a 5 ton is used These coils should have a TXV ( Thermal Expansion Valve ) on them for better control. Hope this helps - Good Luck

What would you recommend then for me? Im in FL and its HOT all year lol. So I don't mind spending a little more but don't want to be wasteful in buying a unit that is too big such a 5 ton and turning the blower speed back? What's the point in that and not just buying a 4 ton. Right now I have a 5 Ton AH and 4 Ton outside unit. I need to replace both units and wasn't sure the size to get. Im in FL my house is 2100 sqft and I have a decent amount of windows. Prior to my air breaking my other unit worked well and cooled the house fine.

eggs

· #11 · 2 mo ago

Rule of thumb to start with is 600 ft2 = 1 ton of load. Then we factor in age, how well insulated and rating of windows and finally location. Commercial we go with around 400 ft2 = 1 ton of load. Again, same factors come into play. If your house is well insulated, double pain low E glass - good quality, then 4 ton is pretty close. The fact that the coil is 5 ton does not come into play with cooling capacity. The condensing unit is the engine that drives it. If you over size the condenser, then we go back to a cool high humid house, not much fun. You may see a slight bit more cooling from a higher SEER rating only because your average temps are higher than the mid West. So stay with 4 ton, then pending on what you want to spend will decide what SEER rating you get. Bigger question is why must you change out both? What failed? AHUs and coils normally last a long time if you take care of them. The outside unit taking the heat of the weather is what goes first. If you have an R22 unit, buy a R407C condenser and be done. There is an old saying-" If it is not broke, don't fix it ". In your case, 4 tons works fine, can't say much about the other parts, not enough info.

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Abbey

Discussion Starter · #12 · 2 mo ago

They told me the evaporate coils have a leak and that most of the R22 is gone. The cost to put the Freon in and fix the parts was not worth doing? I guess the R22 is expensive if you can even find someone to do it , I think its about $160/ lb and I need 13 lbs. The old system is a 2003 Frigidaire 5 Ton FT3BC series 12 seer and the AH is 4 Ton Nordyne #B3BV-060k-CB.
Sorry I misstyped the prior info

Abbey said:
What would you recommend then for me? Im in FL and its HOT all year lol. So I don't mind spending a little more but don't want to be wasteful in buying a unit that is too big such a 5 ton and turning the blower speed back? What's the point in that and not just buying a 4 ton. Right now I have a 5 Ton AH and 4 Ton outside unit. I need to replace both units and wasn't sure the size to get. Im in FL my house is 2100 sqft and I have a decent amount of windows. Prior to my air breaking my other unit worked well and cooled the house fine.

** CORRECTION my AH is 4Ton and my compressor is 5Ton

Abbey

Discussion Starter · #13 · 2 mo ago

eggs said:
Rule of thumb to start with is 600 ft2 = 1 ton of load. Then we factor in age, how well insulated and rating of windows and finally location. Commercial we go with around 400 ft2 = 1 ton of load. Again, same factors come into play. If your house is well insulated, double pain low E glass - good quality, then 4 ton is pretty close. The fact that the coil is 5 ton does not come into play with cooling capacity. The condensing unit is the engine that drives it. If you over size the condenser, then we go back to a cool high humid house, not much fun. You may see a slight bit more cooling from a higher SEER rating only because your average temps are higher than the mid West. So stay with 4 ton, then pending on what you want to spend will decide what SEER rating you get. Bigger question is why must you change out both? What failed? AHUs and coils normally last a long time if you take care of them. The outside unit taking the heat of the weather is what goes first. If you have an R22 unit, buy a R407C condenser and be done. There is an old saying-" If it is not broke, don't fix it ". In your case, 4 tons works fine, can't say much about the other parts, not enough info.

My Outside Unit is a 2003 Frigidaire 5 Ton # FT3BC and my AH is a Nordyne B3BV-060K-CB 4 Ton. -One contractor did a calculation and told me Im at 4.2 and recommended a 5 Ton. The other contractor recommend a 5 ton bc that is what I'm use to.

They told me that I have a leak in the coil and between the cost of fixing that and getting R22 added that it wouldn't be worth fixing based on the age. I guess getting R22 at 15lbs would be very expensive if I could even find someone to do it.

The other issue I am having is many of the brands do not have their new Seer2 rating products out yet and I wanted to get my $2000 Back in the form of a tax credit. UGHHH

eggs

· #14 · 2 mo ago

If they told you that, they are not looking out for your best interest. R22 is VERY expensive, BUT - R438a is not and is a 100% compatible drop in refrigerant with zero negative effects. Converted a 1967 AC unit last year for a small company, he said it never worked as well before. Repaired a few leaks, and saved him in the area of $25,000. A new coil should cost under $500 and the refrigerant is the $20 per pound area. R438a is also known as MO99. So with labor, cost should be well under $1500 to replace the coil and charge the unit. My personal AC is from 1980 - works fine, payback of upgrading is not in my lifetime. I did a search - found your AHU for $406 and up. I hate replacing equipment when it is not needed. R410a refrigerant is used for now, but it is on the list to be band. R438a is not. The old R22 was one of the best refrigerants out there. As for load, if they said 4.2 ton, personally I would go to a 4 ton not 5 ton. 5 tons will cool faster, but not dehumidify as well. Always a bad thing to over size AC in a residential building. You state the coil is 4 ton, it is 060k which is a 5 ton coil (60,000 BTU), assume your AC condenser outside is 4 ton, you must have them reversed. If a contractor is unable to replace the evap coil, you are dealing with bottom of the line talent, look else where. It is so easy to do, should take no more than 3 hours to do plus the time to connect pipes, evac and charge. Now if your condenser leaked or a bad compressor, cost of repairs may exceed 50%, then changing it would be better. Good luck in your search for an honest contractor...... I only do this on line to help people out from getting wrong info and protect them from getting screwed. Hope this helps

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Showtime1k

· #15 · 26 d ago

eggs said:
If they told you that, they are not looking out for your best interest. R22 is VERY expensive, BUT - R438a is not and is a 100% compatible drop in refrigerant with zero negative effects. Converted a 1967 AC unit last year for a small company, he said it never worked as well before. Repaired a few leaks, and saved him in the area of $25,000. A new coil should cost under $500 and the refrigerant is the $20 per pound area. R438a is also known as MO99. So with labor, cost should be well under $1500 to replace the coil and charge the unit. My personal AC is from 1980 - works fine, payback of upgrading is not in my lifetime. I did a search - found your AHU for $406 and up. I hate replacing equipment when it is not needed. R410a refrigerant is used for now, but it is on the list to be band. R438a is not. The old R22 was one of the best refrigerants out there. As for load, if they said 4.2 ton, personally I would go to a 4 ton not 5 ton. 5 tons will cool faster, but not dehumidify as well. Always a bad thing to over size AC in a residential building. You state the coil is 4 ton, it is 060k which is a 5 ton coil (60,000 BTU), assume your AC condenser outside is 4 ton, you must have them reversed. If a contractor is unable to replace the evap coil, you are dealing with bottom of the line talent, look else where. It is so easy to do, should take no more than 3 hours to do plus the time to connect pipes, evac and charge. Now if your condenser leaked or a bad compressor, cost of repairs may exceed 50%, then changing it would be better. Good luck in your search for an honest contractor...... I only do this on line to help people out from getting wrong info and protect them from getting screwed. Hope this helps

Man that 438 a is expensive. Where you getting it at

eggs

· #16 · 25 d ago

In Wisconsin, can name about 5 places that carry it. Cost is around $450 for 25# or $18 per pound. We can still get R22, but the cost is slightly over $100 per pound, some quotes were as high as $150 per pound.

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