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Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
One could say everything started as DIY. Even Henry Ford was a DIYer.
So, should we not put any effort into reducing DIY of HVAC? I am getting very mixed signals here. Are we making excuses for why DIY should be left alone? If there is a viable fight that will actually reduce DIY of HVAC, I will support it. But if all we are going to do is complain about it without any results, then I say we just let it happen and work with it instead of against it.

Then again, let's go ahead and take old Henry Ford as an example. Can you make your own vehicle from existing components? Of course you can. Can you get that vehicle to be legal for licensing and putting in operation on the road? Probably so. Would there be so many regulations and testing and hundreds of hours of paper work in order to allow that DIYed vehicle to be licensed? YOU BETCHA!

So, if we go the route of the vehicle requirements, we just may see as many HVAC DIYers as we do vehicle DIYers.
 

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Kit cars have been around for years. And are not hard to get passed as road legal.

We're not talking about building a house.

Assembly of an HVAC system, is not as hard as building a kit car.
 

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So, should we not put any effort into reducing DIY of HVAC? I am getting very mixed signals here. Are we making excuses for why DIY should be left alone? If there is a viable fight that will actually reduce DIY of HVAC, I will support it. But if all we are going to do is complain about it without any results, then I say we just let it happen and work with it instead of against it.

Then again, let's go ahead and take old Henry Ford as an example. Can you make your own vehicle from existing components? Of course you can. Can you get that vehicle to be legal for licensing and putting in operation on the road? Probably so. Would there be so many regulations and testing and hundreds of hours of paper work in order to allow that DIYed vehicle to be licensed? YOU BETCHA!

So, if we go the route of the vehicle requirements, we just may see as many HVAC DIYers as we do vehicle DIYers.
Hey I showed this thread to my buddy Kanye and he actually wrote the following for me to you:

"Yo RoBo....I'm happy for you and all and gonna let you finish, but Milk man had one of the
best posts of all time"

Thanks Kanye:thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Hey I showed this thread to my buddy Kanye and he actually wrote the following for me to you:

"Yo RoBo....I'm happy for you and all and gonna let you finish, but Milk man had one of the
best posts of all time"

Thanks Kanye:thumbsup:
I got no clue:confused1:
 

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Interesting subject ....... thing is Robo , I think manufactures would cut us out if they think they can. Its just like any other product ......they want their cut of the pie. If the economy gets tighter , the slices of the pie get smaller ..... there is only so much money out there. Manufactures have to figure anyway they can get the same , or larger slice of the pie ........ who cares what the installers or service guy get. Just like new construction ........ its all about getting subs that work for nothing , or less than others will work for. Same as most products , you need to cut costs as much as possible to make more money.

I know a lot will say I'm stupid but I think a lot of where our industry has changed came in around the same time as everyone started doing flat rate pricing ......... just as what happened with the automotive repair industry ...... prices went way up.

Ya I know a lot will say oh your full of it being its the only way your gonna make money. Ya thats fine but I'm just talking about where I think things started to change for our industry as far as why I also think it headed the way of the dyi more.

I was setting in the dentist chair the other day , paying way more then I wanted being it was a new dentist that I got lured into under the idea that he was way more reasonably priced ( my dentist retired so I needed a new one ). Girlfriend recomended him being she thought he was pretty reasonable, now he was pretty new for her and hadn't had all that much done. I called and got his rates as far as teeth cleaning , first checkup with x rays , fillings.

Reasonable prices, so I go in for first checkup and find I have 1 cavity , need a filling where one is coming apart, need a good cleaning . All the sudden the prices are really not what was told over the phone ....... they give me a flat rate sheet and I'm asking why these are nowhere what I was quoted ........ I'm also hearing the same teeth cleaning price be quoted over the phone by a differant secretary ...... that I originally was quoted.

They just claim every case is a little differant .... which isn't what I want to hear.

Ya I probably should have walked but I figured I would be better to get the cavity and filling fixed and then go find a new dentist and give him the xrays and stuff from this one.

While he was working on my teeth and waiting for the novicane to kick in I asked him why the prices were differant being I understood it is flat rate ....... and it wasn't the same as there charging over the phone. He himed and hawed a little and I told him that I charged flat rate so I know how it really works ..... he just kind of laughed and said he avoids using anyone charging flat rate in a lot of businesses being he knows that way is the worst case senerio.

I didn't press it being I honestly look at it that way too and could understand exactly what he was saying. It makes me realize how many people out there have all changed there way of going to flat rate pricing ..... and all the people that realize that anyone they do business with is probably gonna be way higher in cost then someone not charging flat rate ....... thats competant and not trying to screw them.

NO DON"T TAKE THAT, THAT EVERYONE FLAT RATE IS TRYING TO SCREW THEM ( I'm just giving an opinion Why I think things are gonna change )

I see it for a lot of businesses anymore that in this economy that people are not willing to pay what we are asking now as to what we were before. They see the big increase in cost from everyone changing to flat rate, a huge amount that have been burn't by flate rate ...... low diagnostic charge then told $400 to $700 for something it cost $175, 6 years ago to do.

People are turning into DYI's any chance they get ..... wether it be hvac or automotive.

The more DYI's there are out there the more the Home Depots , Lowe's, and every furnace manufacture looks at it .......... THATS OUR SLICE OF THE PIE.

They want their money wether we are any part of it or not. If it takes eliminating our cut of the slice of pie ........ they don't care . They will let us fight over the scap pieces of pie crust that fall of from things not working quite right. Ya there will be some but we will be fighting for that with unemployed techs working out of their garages.

Might be a little safer in the large comercial stuff as long as its not fleet accounts or national chains that get national pricing.


Its a interesting subject Robo ...... thought I would throw what I think, and where I think its headed , and maybe why. :sad: HOPE I"M WRONG

Ps ..... hope your feeling better and didn't have too much birthday cake :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Not one piece of cake dec, and I too hope you and I are wrong about where the equipment manufacturer's are steering our industry.

Then again, it may wind up being more like it is in places like Japan. There, you have manufacturer's stores that distribute directly to consumers but have their own in house installers to make sure their products are properly installed.

It really doesn't matter to me whether I am working for a distributor, a manufacturer or a contractor, as long as there is work for all of us.
 

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The service calls I hate the most is fixing a homowner or horrible techs install or screwed up repair. I do however think that a person should have the legal right to fix whatever they want in thier own home that they own and live in as long as they feel that they are capable. With rights come resposibilities, they also have the right to screw it up horribly, pay twice as much for somthing to be properly done if they do screw it up. The avarage DIYer has no background in electricity, or venting. A person does not have to be a moron to make a mistake fixing thier furnace or get electrocuted, just lack a more in depth understanding of dangers and operation of hvac equipment and components. In the end it might save you some, or it might cost you alot.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
In our side of the business we are very concerned about Nest bypassing the HVAC contractor and telling us what we can charge to install one of their thermostats, is anyone else concerned about this trend.
Pretty interesting discussion here: http://controltrends.org/2012/06/the-nest-thermostat-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/
Just refuse to install NEST stats. They are mostly all going to be removed in a year or two anyway. Only the most devout environMENTAList is going to allow the NEST to save energy at the cost of their comfort. And if these were truly energy minded folks, they would not have mechanical cooling systems and would keep their heat at 50 degrees all the time.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
The service calls I hate the most is fixing a homowner or horrible techs install or screwed up repair. I do however think that a person should have the legal right to fix whatever they want in thier own home that they own and live in as long as they feel that they are capable. With rights come resposibilities, they also have the right to screw it up horribly, pay twice as much for somthing to be properly done if they do screw it up. The avarage DIYer has no background in electricity, or venting. A person does not have to be a moron to make a mistake fixing thier furnace or get electrocuted, just lack a more in depth understanding of dangers and operation of hvac equipment and components. In the end it might save you some, or it might cost you alot.
I always loved going behind DIYer's and bad technicians. Fixing someone elses mistakes allow us to charge premium prices because we are proving that we are making use of knowledge that we have paid to obtain over the years.
 

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We really don't see how this would be possible. Our State has licensing and Fed's have environmental restrictions.

Also, its best left to a professional.:yes:
No federal regs restrict anyone from servicing or installing R410A systems.
 

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I doubt it

My opinion is the DIY will not have a big impact. I say this as a DIY'er, after having studied carefully what it takes to do a proper install.

Sure the units will become more widely available, and some guys will figure it out. But it still represents a big project that most homeowners will choose not to take on themselves.

And there is still a considerable outlay for tools and equipment.

And there are too many unique and difficult install situations.

And for those who do it themselves, a certain percentage will do it wrong.

And if manufacturers really are successful at making the units "plug and play", they will eventually need service which requires more expensive tools and expertise.

I would liken it to the auto service industry. There is little government regulation, and lots of guys can do it. But the great majority choose to pay a pro for lots of very good reasons.

I'd be curious to hear opinions within this related topic I posted earlier:

http://www.hvacsite.com/f3/question-you-pros-id-like-know-your-opinion-1403/
 

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i have been trying to get my system fixed for 20 days 5 guys came out 1000 later none of them have the proper tools i have no problem paying if they no what they are doing they all want to take short cuts they done want to call the Goodman for help because they will be ask questions they cant answer like what is the wet bulb none of them had a psychrometer or anemometer or a micron gauge they all want to treat it like r22 they dont want to wait to get a good vacuum this is why a do it your self if they have access can take the time to do it right i mean i purchased everything online all fieldpeice products i spent $600 bucks for all of it including guage set i guess its better for them to keep taking money and just say condensor bad here is my problem see if one of you can fix the problem brand new goodman 3 ton ssx140361 chpf3642C6 Coil
Outside temp at condenser 83
Wet bulb 22 humidity 56temp
Due point 25 39
Dry bulb 77 at 22
Low Suction at condenser temp 48
High Liquid at condenser temp 85
Suction at coil temp 48
Liquid at coil temp 85
Return 72
Supply 57
Cfm furnace 1245
Piston size 67
Super heat none
Sub cooling
High side pressure 375
Low side pressure 142
7 lbs of freon 24 ft line set
Thanks For your help
 

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We at DuctlessAire build our equipment for ease of installations and trouble shooting but require it to be installed by state Licensed professional. But we do see a lot of customers try DYI. I don't really think it will make a big impact on the trade as we all know 1 little bump in the road and it is off to the phone book. I say If you cant fix it Don't try to install it.
 
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