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Some of the problems I can see though, is that even with quick connect fittings, the DIY’er would probably still have to properly evacuate the line set and evaporator coil, especially when POE is involved. Also, what about things like extending line sets and adjusting charge or properly coiling excess line in short runs to prevent oil return problems?
Any manufacturer that sells equipment for DIY installation is going to have to contend with at least these issues, which will likely lead to problems and premature failure of their product, as well as a rash of warranty claims. This most likely would result in many unhappy customers and damage their brand similar to the current reputation of General Motor’s products.
I suppose a larger factory installed LL dryer could help pick up some of the moisture from improper evacuation, but what about the air trapped in the system? I guess onboard diagnostics could be used to verify SC and SH though. :001_unsure:
 

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No need to vacuum with quick connect fittings.
The line sets are precharged. So no adding extra charge either.

When they were used. You could get extension lines(atlest for one brand, just can't remember who it was).
Coiling is no more a problem for a DIYer, then some of the "pros?" that would also be installing those same systems.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
I was thinking of the potential lawsuits and how overengineered/overlabelled everything is today. All started with the fool who sued McDs for the coffee spill on their lap and McDs not warning them the coffee was hot. Look at all the explosion proof crap a gas water heater has to have now and the $200 increase in price we have to sell it for. Some idiot probably burned his face with a rolled up newspaper lighting the pilot light and sued GSW etc. Pretty soon your kitchen knife will have a label "DO NOT USE INTERNALLY".:gun_bandana:
I'm not sure I am understanding the relavance of this post, but the hot McDonald's coffee incident was no where near the beggining of lawsuits for unsafe products. Let them keep labeling the crap out of products. Those labels are putting people to work:yes:
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Some of the problems I can see though, is that even with quick connect fittings, the DIY’er would probably still have to properly evacuate the line set and evaporator coil, especially when POE is involved. Also, what about things like extending line sets and adjusting charge or properly coiling excess line in short runs to prevent oil return problems?
Any manufacturer that sells equipment for DIY installation is going to have to contend with at least these issues, which will likely lead to problems and premature failure of their product, as well as a rash of warranty claims. This most likely would result in many unhappy customers and damage their brand similar to the current reputation of General Motor’s products.
I suppose a larger factory installed LL dryer could help pick up some of the moisture from improper evacuation, but what about the air trapped in the system? I guess onboard diagnostics could be used to verify SC and SH though. :001_unsure:
Manufacturer's will not be selling to the public any more then any manufacture sells to the public now. I am sure that we have the technology to manufacture more flexible refrigerant hoses such as are used in the automotive cooling systems.

I can see the big box stores renting vacuum pumps with quick connect locking fittings. Some equipment manufacturers have already produced sytems that are self charging. So, with the install of an accumulator or charge compensator, no refrigerant will ever have to be added to or leave a system and it won't even be necessary to put gauges on a system.

The last thing we should be doing is getting all cocky over how difficult it would be for easier to install DIY HVAC systems to be manufactured.
 

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I'm not sure I am understanding the relavance of this post, but the hot McDonald's coffee incident was no where near the beggining of lawsuits for unsafe products.
The funny thing is how much press the lawsuit got. And how well they left everyone know she won.

But, how little coverage it got. When McDonalds and won. They didn't print it as front page news anymore.

Nope, she never got her 2 million.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
The funny thing is how much press the lawsuit got. And how well they left everyone know she won.

But, how little coverage it got. When McDonalds and won. They didn't print it as front page news anymore.

Nope, she never got her 2 million.
I did not know she did not get her money.

I had read that the reason the authorities came down so heavily on McDonalds is because McDonald's had had previous warnings not to make their coffee so hot and not keep it so hot. From what I understand, coffee stays fresher when it is hotter and not allowed to evaporate.

So basically, McDonald's was being punished for not adhering to earlier warnings.
 

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Manufacturer's will not be selling to the public any more then any manufacture sells to the public now. I am sure that we have the technology to manufacture more flexible refrigerant hoses such as are used in the automotive cooling systems.

I can see the big box stores renting vacuum pumps with quick connect locking fittings. Some equipment manufacturers have already produced sytems that are self charging. So, with the install of an accumulator or charge compensator, no refrigerant will ever have to be added to or leave a system and it won't even be necessary to put gauges on a system.

The last thing we should be doing is getting all cocky over how difficult it would be for easier to install DIY HVAC systems to be manufactured.
Who’s getting cocky…?
I can’t say that I’ve seen a pre-charged R410A quick-connect line set yet, but I’m sure I eventually will if they are out there.
I would wager that the majority of equipment failures are probably due to improper installation anyway, so a manufacturer making installation easier for an unconcerned installer to do correctly is most likely the driving force behind these components. The DIY aspect will just be an unfortunate end result of this due to the industries own inability to provide quality work and enough skilled installers to perform it. But, if there is money to be made on DIY, I'm sure that manufacturers and their entire distribution network would be glad to take advantage of it, regardless of any industry backlash.
I can see this working with something like mini-splits, but I don’t know how well it will work for new resi split system installs, which would also entail a furnace or air handler, ductwork, etc… unless they also offer a complete pre-engineered packaged installation layout including equipment, ductwork and a materials list based on submitted plans, something like they used to do with the old Sears Roebuck catalog homes decades ago.
I would agree that service is still going to be a situation where any loss from DIY installation may be heavily recouped.
 

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Not to stray off topic too much.

When McD's had their coffee makers temp turned down, it imediately changed the flavor.

Fortunately, when it went into appeal. The judge knew that coffee had to be brewed hot. And that its not reasonable to put a cup of freshly brewed coffee between your legs anytime, let alone while in a moving vehicle.
 

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There is always, a risk of liability.

There is always someone willing to sue.

Hopefully, they will always be a wise judge.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Not to stray off topic too much.

When McD's had their coffee makers temp turned down, it imediately changed the flavor.

Fortunately, when it went into appeal. The judge knew that coffee had to be brewed hot. And that its not reasonable to put a cup of freshly brewed coffee between your legs anytime, let alone while in a moving vehicle.
The things that are learned when silly things like a dumbass complaining that their coffee was hot:yes:

I did not know about the temperature of the brewing for coffee made such a difference at the time of that lawsuit. I did get into a conversation with a man during one of my business trips a few years ago who said he is careful where he buys his coffee when he is away because after the McDonald's lawsuit, many places that sell coffee had turned down the temerature of the brewing process and the coffee was not as good. Something about having to be at a high enough temperature to draw the oils out of the coffee for flavor.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
There is always, a risk of liability.

There is always someone willing to sue.

Hopefully, they will always be a wise judge.
Equating this back to HVAC and DIYers, the only thing that can really save HVAC from attempting to go the DIY route, yet again, is to regulate HVAC equipment for safety reasons.

This would make it an actual crime to install or work on HVAC systems without a license. In this way, licensed contractors would not be liable for DIY installs and repairs, but would become more liable then ever for our own work.
 

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In Canada nobody can buy any refrigerant or systems without a ozone/refrigerant tech license. We are now coming out with a Journeyman Residential tech license and in the near future a license holder will have to be on the job. DIYers do not exist on units here. Had one fool smuggle a Goodman split R410 and an Aspen R22 coil in and wanted us to hook it up. Kaching $$ when we went to get him the proper coil etc.
 

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Equating this back to HVAC and DIYers, the only thing that can really save HVAC from attempting to go the DIY route, yet again, is to regulate HVAC equipment for safety reasons.

This would make it an actual crime to install or work on HVAC systems without a license. In this way, licensed contractors would not be liable for DIY installs and repairs, but would become more liable then ever for our own work.
When they make it illegal to buy brake pads, linings, rotors, and drums.

Then I might agree with that.

We're already not liable for a DIY install. In this state.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Well, according to Yuri, regulation is working in Canada. If there are no DIY HVAC installs in Canada because of the equipment being regulated, then why would this not work for the U.S.?

Then again, since I recently carried around a handgun throughout Onterio, I don't know how much Canadian regulations really have an impact:shifty:
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Don't get me wrong, I don't like government regulations. As far as I'm concerned, anyone should be able to buy anything and only be fined or jailed if what they buy is used for any criminal intent or if it's use causes damage to others.

With HVAC sytems, the more DIYing that goes on, the more systems are going to fail prematurely and the more work there will always be for the professionals.
 

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Well, according to Yuri, regulation is working in Canada. If there are no DIY HVAC installs in Canada because of the equipment being regulated, then why would this not work for the U.S.?

Then again, since I recently carried around a handgun throughout Onterio, I don't know how much Canadian regulations really have an impact:shifty:
Man, what where you thinking? What would have happened if you got caught?
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Man, what where you thinking? What would have happened if you got caught?
I wasn't thinking at all. I always carry unless I am flying, and even then I accidentally took a loaded 9mm to Houston with me without anyone catching it was in my suitcase. It's always with me and I just forget to leave it home on those special occasions where I could be arrested for terrorism and spend the rest of my life being fed, washed while lounging on a board and otherwise be taken care of for the rest of my life on some tropical island.
 

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Don't get me wrong, I don't like government regulations. As far as I'm concerned, anyone should be able to buy anything and only be fined or jailed if what they buy is used for any criminal intent or if it's use causes damage to others.

With HVAC sytems, the more DIYing that goes on, the more systems are going to fail prematurely and the more work there will always be for the professionals.

DIY is not new. Been going on for longer then I've been alive.

The internet has made it possible for more people to do it. But its not new.
And there are many DIYers that do a better install or repair then some of the techs/companies in there area would do.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
DIY is not new. Been going on for longer then I've been alive.

The internet has made it possible for more people to do it. But its not new.
And there are many DIYers that do a better install or repair then some of the techs/companies in there area would do.
I agree that DIY has always been and will always be. However, every time HVAC DIY has been promoted by the big box stores, it has failed miserably.

From the "install your own complete air conditiong system" that Scott's Home and Garden stores tried out to simple things like whole house humidifiers have been disasers for big box retailers.

However, it was the Home Depot, Hechinger, Lowes, Scott's crowd that are responsible for killing the EPA ruling that you had to be cfc certified to purchase refrigerant bearing "split" system units. The original cfc ruling did specify that any refrigerant bearing unit that required being connected by refrigeration to another component was to be purchased only by a cfc certificate holder. That ruling was removed literally hours before the cfc certification requirements was put into affect.

That tells me that despite the failures to make HVAC DIY a success, that the big box retailers wanted that door left open. Now we have every big box retailer allying itself with an HVAC equipment manufacturer. The two entities have been in bed together for years and have been very active in their foreplay. It's only a matter of time before they consumate that relationship, only HVAC professionals will be the ones getting screwed.
 
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